What does a photographer’s rep do? How do you get a rep? What is a photo worth? What do reps look for? How much do reps charge? How to price photography and negotiate for value.
Based in Los Angeles, SternRep is an international boutique agency representing a group of passionate and talented commercial photographers in the product, food, automotive and lifestyle industries among others.
Founder Andrea Stern opened shop in Venice in 1995 after attending Brooks Institute, bringing with her a diverse creative professional background. Drawing on her experience in commercial production, film sets still photography, and boxing training, Andrea developed a uniquely genuine and enthusiastic style of representation.
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welcome to the future you guys it's City Thursday happy Thursday to everybody a very common question that we get from our audiences how do I get work now you can focus on sales inbound and outbound marketing things that we talk about all the time or you could be so fortunate to have an amazing sales rep what is a rep what do they do how do they do what they do these are things we're gonna be talking about with our guests in the studio today her name is Andrea Stern her company's called stern rep you guys can go to Stern rep comm we're gonna talk to her we're gonna look at some of the artists that she represents and we're gonna get into all the challenges facing photographers today so stay tuned for that roll the titles alright we're back guys welcome back hopefully you guys can hear us okay we've been having some technical difficulties so let us know Molly's in the house mark is in the house as well as Erica and they'll be watching and reading your comments on Facebook and on YouTube let's just get right to it Andrea Stern is in the House today and here are a couple of things that I know about Andrea one she went to the Brooks Institute and quickly discovered that photography was not for her and her story about how she became a rep is really interesting I'm gonna ask her about that she's been working as a photographer's rep for over 20 years she represents photographers in the space for product automotive and lifestyle and her rosters currently today stands at for photographers and one retoucher or retouching studio first up is Brian Garland and here's some of the work that he's done some really beautiful amazing automotive work as well as some well there's other stuff that you guys can go check out I'm sorry and then there's Paul Barr Sean I hope I said that correctly Andrea did I say that right all right I'm a quick learner right here's some of his work just gorgeous work mm-hmm more automotive and then this was kind of this jumped out on me the motorcycle triumph triumph beautiful and then some lifestyle stuff mixing it with the automotive work is this for is for Hyundai Hyundai Genesis yes beautiful yeah and then there's Jeff Stockwell look at the composition the lighting you guys if you guys ever get to this level chances are you probably will have a rep at this point but there's some lifestyle stuff mixed in here this is also for triumph that was a test just okay which is a huge topic we should talk about it okay we will I'm gonna make a note of that test okay and next up and the reason why I think we're talking is because of my good friend Toby Peterson right he's an amazing photographer and he shoots a lot of still life amazing just incredible amount of work I know how hard working is and he's got an incredible eye great taste and style and for full disclosure I am friends with Toby we went to school together and his wife used to work for us of an essay I've been hearing about you for years it's all good stuff it took us this long to get together so here we go and then last but not least is Cass Studios their photo retouching studio and maybe you can talk a little bit later about what a photo retouching studio does and these images that we think are just captured in camera are actually labors of love right well OH labors of love what in terms of like stitch I know what I talked to Toby it's like he's shooting things and there's a bunch of different images that then shadows get removed reflections get added or taken out there's so much work that goes into these moon shots and it's often not shot in one shot and strips that they compose together okay so now now that you've heard her voice let's just just find out who she is and what does a photographer's rep – that's a great question um Tigers rep and I can't speak for all reps you know I'm one rep we we are the voice for the photographer we negotiate fees we handle the managing of their portfolio and we talk about where the marketing direction is going we're basically the voice for them to the world but that has changed a bit because nowadays with social media the photographer is also very out for themselves and we can talk about that that's a big topic hmm social media so can you boil it down because there's a lot of people watching this in all parts of the world that have no idea what this is and I'm kind of in the business so I know a little bit about it because we've had we have reps ourselves but the way photographers reps work is very different than the way our rep works and so I'd like to find out a little bit more about kind of a typical case about how how you work with your artists well it depends on them I mean everyone's different the other thing I want to throw out here today is I work in the ad agency world commercial advertising there's other types of reps so that's the one I know about so I'll be talking about that there's also editorial and many other other types so photographer needs a rep we're really when they start working because we negotiate for them but one biggest part is not to talk money I'm the one that talks money even if if if photographers asked to add shots for the shoot they're supposed to say I'd love to but you have to talk to my rep it kind of makes me the bad guy in a in a good way so the photographer doesn't have to be the bad guy right so here's here's the dilemma then so I'm a young person and I think my photography is pretty good but I can't get any real leads and I'd love to work on advertising on these big brands that we just saw how do I go about getting a rep and then how does how does this whole process work and what do you look for in terms of people to work with best way to get a rep is to have great work because you'll be found there's so many ways that people find you and want to hire the photographer and then you get to meet the people in the business and then the communication starts and that's actually how I found Toby I put it out there to an art producer Deutsch at the time ad agency in LA and I said do you know any product photographers or any up-and-coming photographers she said oh my god yes Toby Peterson I went and looked him up immediately and met with him and we started working together 15 years ago and that's really its relationships it's how you meet people you put it out there so really just get your work out there mm-hmm it's kind of simple in that way okay so what was it about Toby's portfolio or her him as a person that attracted you to him and made you think this guy I can go and sell him get work for and this is gonna be a good relationship he doesn't work at the time I don't know if you remember this Chris but it was like mannequins mm-hmm and what else it looked like fake people with weird stuff it was really strange and for some reason I just knew especially because it came with this recommendation from Deutsche that he's great that helps a lot of recommendation and then I met him and I just saw through his work more than his personable self he's fantastic and we and then a you know included in that as we got along great and truck I just had a trust for him but we communicated and as I saw it I saw this is gonna get money this is marketable hmm okay so I have so many questions for you now then so Toby didn't have a rep at that time right right so how did he get to work with with Deutsche good question and it was was he hesitant or reluctant at first I was like I'm getting work and I'm making a hundred percent of that so I I'm just giving you the best possible platform for you to kind of explain to people what you do because it's remarkably different then my experiences with different reps there's two parts here one is what it used to be like and how important a rep was we were the only way for a person like Toby to get out there you know there was internet but there wasn't much else there was no social media at the time so he needed a rep that was not a question and also he at Deutsche II was like the what do you call it the person that would do smaller stuff for them they need something on white on a table they'd use him mm-hmm it was kind of like their in-house guy in a way at the time that wasn't official but that was those worth his jobs the smaller jobs so I he needed someone to come in and and charge more and ask for more and put the bid together and talk about the marketing and where is he going with his portfolio do you know any ditch text you know assistants prop stylist like to kind of get the overall plan going he was just starting at the time mm-hmm but today should we jump on today sure it's really different and I don't know what's gonna happen I don't know what's gonna happen without agencies reps we I feel like we have a different position now because photographers have to be really involved in a way they did not before I'm not just the voice they have to be the voice too because without Instagram without hashtags I remember this thing we worked with this art producer and she told me they had a client meeting they were looking for let's say a dark and moody portrait shooter she'd go she at the meeting under the table with her phone looking up hashtags dark moody portrait mmm she was coming up with sharks through hashtags at the time like this is today's world yes so photographers have to shift reps have to shift and that's where I feel like we're at right now we're all like oh my god what's going on how do we do this and we're discovering that's where we are at this moment so it sounds to me like technology has made it easier for artists to find clients and clients to find artists yes I want to share a story with you just real quick there's a guy used to work for me as a photographer and he started posting and building a decent following on Instagram he's probably up to like 40 50 thousand people now and Apple found one of his images that he took with his iPhone and they wanted to use it for a billboard so then he came and asked me Chris how much should I know negotiate this image for what's gonna happen and being that he's a rookie at negotiating for his images he probably could have done better for himself and so how would somebody like that say okay look I have an opportunity to work with Apple should they reach out to a rep and have you step in and help out or do you have any advice on this or thoughts yeah I think reps have always kind of done that we've always offered that I shouldn't speak for every rep I'll speak for myself but now I'm doing it more so much more because inexperienced photographers are getting jobs just like your story there it's not the structure it used to be now people who really don't know the business are needing a rep sometimes just this morning I did a bid for a photographer yesterday I did another one photographers come to me they need to bid something I feel good about the photographer why not you know help them mm-hm and I make a commission on it right so let's talk about Commission's then yep how do you structure fees how does this work The Temper upping depends on the situation but the normal rate is 25% I have heard of 30% I don't know if that's true I've never done that but 25% is the norm of the fees just the fees not the expenses okay so so if it's $100,000 or can we use real numbers and in something so people have some idea sure since you're a commercial like advertising rep what are some typical fees for like say a one-day shoot a product still-life it always depends on usage and this is another topic we should talk about that's a big topic but usage how many shots how creative it is I think that's why it's called a creative fee not at just a day rate it used to be per shot it's no longer that in my experience day rates can go between $2,500 to $20,000 okay some good money yeah it's good money it it's I gotta say though nowadays it's going down a little bit right it's not as good as it was right let's just pretend like everything is great it will stay there okay I like that we'll stay there and then we will talk about the challenges because I want to try to keep this segmented so that we can talk about like the dream and then the nightmare possibly who knows okay so the dream is I'm a photographer and I can make somewhere on a day rate 2500 to 25,000 but then you also talked about usage and so how might that impact the the creative fees altogether if the usage is big the money should be big too because the photographer's usage is based on their image how many are seeing it it's kind of simple in that way it used to be when it was internet called digital it was small now that's a bit bigger but if they can get more specific like not full by out they often call it or buying the copyright or unlimited usage but if they can say one year print or one year social media the more fine-tuned they can get like that the smaller we feel in general us that we can bring down our creative fee day rate okay so the usage is very limited and the time in which they're using it for us limited then relatively speaking the fees will be a little bit lower and on the opposite and the spectrum on the far right there if they want a buyout exclusive usage they want to just own image then the price is gonna be very high I assume right right and it's also where worldwide what's often called global and nowadays with internet you know you can't say just California right but if it's print or something else it's where is it going okay so if it's say a national by for one year and one image what what might that be in terms of creative fees for one of your top tier guys I mean it's a great question and I wish I could pretend there's like an answer but honestly it depends it depends who the client is are they a big client is it a tiny client or do they have a big agency they probably pay a little more is it client direct so I can give you a number and let's say what did you say one year national one year national for a decent like a good client like a big client like a fortune 5,000 okay housing company I'm one your national what unlimited print tell me I'm just a advertising I see it's a it's it has to get so specific um I would say 6,000 7,000 okay hmm and then if it were the same exact situation but it was global for one year how am I to impact the price I would try to go up and again this really and to me this is negotiation I try to get a feel of the client because some clients we're talking a lot less and some a lot more I wish I could be more helpful in this and I wish there was answers but I don't think there is but I'm gonna try here yes we make it global it's gonna go up 3,000 okay so we went from 6 K to 9 K for a single image now okay basic or not a single image a day a day I'm sorry yeah okay so basically some of our audience really struggle with this concept that they struggle with the idea of ethics when the work and they measure their their energy how much time they spend on something and they price according to that they don't price according to the client or the usage or how much value it is to the client so you are speaking my language right now but I'd like to kind of dive in to this a little bit deeper with you what you're doing right now is yours you're assessing the value of the image based on how it's going to be used not what was used to make it has no bearing I gotta change that no it is ineffective and that's why it's a creative fee okay it's based on how unique like they need that specific photographer that only they can do that you're gonna be able to charge more but if it's something simple I should say that that 10 other photographer photographer could do mm-hmm you're gonna charge less okay so it's relative to how unique the images to that photographer yes I get that and then so this is why it's very complex right that's why it's not easy for me just like oh it's this price but I guess the heart of the issue is why can why can you justify that one image the same image the same effort let's say from the same photographer could be drastically different from client to client how do you mmm how do you help our audience understand this now I'm on your side here so I'm just I'm trying to set you up for the homerun here but I don't know if I'm doing a good job do you mean one client B same usage same kind of shot but less money then another no let me just okay so like Sam toe because I dunno Toby I'm trying not to just say anything that I shouldn't be saying cuz I do know his business quite all right so Toby's gonna send me an angry email after this today so he won't see it okay he's not on social media anyway so we won't worry about that but his ears might be burning so if I'm Toby and I set up a still life thing like say a bottle okay like a liquid thing right not a pore but just like a beauty shot for a bottle yes that's funny cuz that's what he's shooting today well there we go yeah why why okay can he charge a different price depending on who's walking in or what they're asking for even though it's essentially a bottle shoot well that's part of what makes this is who's the client what budget do they have and again that's where I feel like I come across in an important way is to negotiate find out what do they have I mean it's it's kind of a simple question and the other hard part of that is clients are not going to tell you what they have so there's ways to ask questions to get the answer can you share some of those tips with us please yeah it actually happened this morning I'm sure it happens every day okay I guess I can say it honestly as I said to the client in an email mm-hmm and someone out there watching might be seeing this I said okay so this sounds like you'd have like between 10 and 15 grand and I ask it as a question and I just I knew that honestly would be a little high my goal is for them to say you know that's a little high so that gives us information right okay so what you guys are doing and our honest is a very educated sophisticated kind of creative entrepreneur what we're talking about is your price bracketing and you're anchoring high to get a feel for us how they might respond and your job is always to anchor high because you want them to talk you down versus shooting too low absolutely this is the value that you provide to your your clients or to your photographers because somebody might go in there and undersell it so where my buddy sold his image to Apple for very low money in my opinion for a billboard worldwide usage he could have benefited by having somebody like you so I don't want you guys this is there anything I have to pay somebody else 25% of the creative fees when you probably are on likelihood getting four five ten times as much as you probably could get on your own that's right 25 percent seems like a bargain to me it's like 25 percent of what Yeah right it's like hiring a lawyer yeah you can get more in a way time soon is there more to that analogy mark hiring a lawyer legal things going on they can help you increase your bottom line so write and protect you I think that's a big part of repping to it my dad's a lawyer so it reminds me of this and how he works is to protect the photographer oh my god there's that whole spot on the estimate for description of job so important how many hours no overtimes included what if something changes this bid is based on the PDF of the layouts that we've received if something changes who's covering it that kind of stuff what are you shooting is it on white is there an environment behind it like apples to apples we got to get clear with each other so that paragraph of description is so important to protect and I feel like that's my job to protect the photographer you're an ally to the artist really is what you are yeah I like that I want to be their voice I want to I'm here that's my job keeps keep them in front of people mm-hm and speak for them and protect them mmm I like that it's not on your website no it's like I don't know if we're recording this but yeah yeah you can do that you can refer to this later this will this will be great so I I guess I have some more questions here in terms of for some of you guys that are watching is trying to understand this you can have a lot or all of something very small or have some smaller part of something much bigger and the smaller part is just 75% of something much bigger and this I think this is where a lot of creative people are going to look at you like like a guardian angel you talked about writing clear descriptions and in what we call it just like the scope of work document to make sure it's well defined because in the gray area some clients can take advantage of you you're talking about that you talk about change orders like if the scope grows the artist has a friend like on the batmobile you know or the I'm just calling you up and saying Andrea it's gonna get bigger talk to my rep and then you can go in and say okay here's what we negotiated for now you're changing it so now you're gonna go get more money for the artist right yes and I actually just thought of a story because I again I work mostly without agencies now some client direct as well but mostly at agencies they have a system where they protect us I feel like we're just a team photographers and creatives and art producers they know our business we know their brother we're into this together I was on a job we were I was sitting with the creative creative and art producer and Toby was over there shooting and the creative said to the other creative oh let's also shoot it this way mm-hmm oh yeah the other guy says the other guy yeah let's add two more shots and shoots that way okay and then the art director looks at the art producer right there and he says to her oh yeah so we want to add that she says oh okay and then she texts me or types emails me and I'm sitting across the table from her okay and she said okay so how much to add those two shots right like they it's such a weird system and that's why I suggest assisting if you don't know these things you got to know when you can speak who do you speak to what's your role do you stay in front of people do you ask even people how are they could I get you some water there's rules and a system so they art producer asks me that and then we work it out and I get up and I go talk to Toby and talk about the can you add this will it add any cost well we need so to get dinner for the night any overtime how much time will it take you how much for retouching and then I have to call Cass how much is that gonna so it's not something that just happens at the table in front of everyone mm-hmm so here's what I'm thinking I can imagine that there are some people in our audience where they're gonna earn somewhere between five to nine thousand dollars a year in parts of the world and you're talking about five to nine thousand dollars for a day right right and so they're sitting there thinking oh my gosh how do I get a rep like you how do I get your attention what are some tips or advice I know you have a very limited roster you only have five five companies or people out right now and so that's not there's a lot more photographers and creative people out in the world and fewer Andrea's in the world good for you bad for them how do I get the attention of somebody like you to help me and you sound like the answer to all my prayers well there's no one answer to this because I'm sure you ask twenty successful photographers how did you get where you are you're gonna hear 20 stories so I'll tell you this the ways that I know of and I've seen there aren't great right now there's some great like blog type of things wonderful machine a photo editor at Edge has it Yoda list has it I know I'm forgetting some but there's so many ways and let's say LinkedIn you can go in and do your marketing meet these people for free everything's free right now you you can learn so much agency access APA they there are companies that have ways for you to learn what you got to learn even if you're not at that place of learning it yet by yourself you can and it sets you up with who there's all these portfolio showings go get them it's really APA for sure for photographers in that level and it's a national organization that's what they they want to introduce you to the people the situations you're gonna deal with how to make an estimate who to talk to if you need a lawyer but all of it okay so some great resources there we'll look em up let me answer that sorry there the question is how did you get your book ready and then you're gonna get a rep they're gonna come after you if your book is ready and you're ready to work and you're marketable okay what makes for market will work can you see it on a job for a print can you see it can it a video can you see it when you're on the website for a company does your work reflect that I always call it hyper reality nowadays with Instagram it hyper reality is a less produced more real authentic I'm telling every creative call and I can tell you what a creative call ism' I hear real natural organic authentic yes genuine relatable believable these words that's all we're hearing right now so your work has to fit within today's produced yet not looking produced and really just look around to your research and look up photographers who are really successful go on work book calm and look up photographers it's quite easy look at why why are they working why are they on here check out there who are their clients go look well I feel like all this information right now today is so much easier than when I started 20 years ago it's right there and it's free right I have a question about that so I'm you mentioned okay a big part of this is having a very broad presence of your work whether it be on Instagram or other properties but are there sites specifically where you know reps are looking for these photographers directly you mentioned LinkedIn I think that's probably one of one of the great ways but is there anything else that you'd recommend yeah there's a really big list and I can give the you this list later I'll send it somewhere but like found is another one Boulevard is another what there's all these and I said workbook wonderful machine is huge and very successful they show photographers work and you get yourself on there you get your stuff listed out they're not so people can steal it and use it for free but they can see it and probably copy it but anyway it's out there to be shown for your for your own marketing and advertising purposes mmm okay yeah but also LinkedIn as I said get on there and go ask these people just put in your favorite put in Nike and go look up who's who can you find on Nike and talk to them people are so human these days there's like this human element that is I think back in our world of photography and advertising okay so I want to say something that I want to tie it back to a comment that you made earlier mmm it does sound like it's a situation a catch-22 if your work is good enough for for a commercial work then you can get a rep but yeah to get a rep you have to do work that's good enough to get commercial work right and so that can be kind of difficult so the thing that you mentioned before I think you called it tests testing testing and test assist okay assist to get on the jobs that you want to get on and just see how they do it mm-hmm what are they shooting and testing for people every level testing is so important I think more now today than ever because of the word content which is our industry's huge word right now okay content every I'll just jump around so bring me back with channels of platforms there's so much that clients need and this is what's changed it right now they need so much more more and more they need video you're not just a photographer they need video they need it's endless what they need so many more images in one day retouch not retouch everything on the scenes and it's one day basically and you're doing so much more where was I going testing testing and that's why we got a test we also I have social media we have to put it out there I need stuff and people want to see what you're doing they want to authenticate to know you and grow with you because this is your audience they're watching you on Instagram or on your website everything blog anything you have to keep staying in front of them more than ever so you need to test test test test and it you rediscover yourself constantly growing to become where you're gonna be it used to be kind of a successful older photographer had to rediscover themselves after 10 years right now I gotta say like it's every month it's just a part of the you got to keep growing and growing okay we were talking a little bit about let me see how I'm gonna pull this up mm-hmm when you talk about testing yeah this is a concept that I've shared with our audience and we don't call it testing per se I just say to them look at the work that you'd like to get a look at your own work and close the gap and the way that you get there is you kind of do work that's going to get you notice and feels like it's on par like if it's marketable and if it feels like if it's real those things help out a lot now I happen to have Instagram up so I'm going to show you something here my good friend Toby Peterson and I feel like Instagram is the platform for image makers photographers should have and do have a distinct advantage over other normal people yet his social media following and I'm gonna call him out here and said 338 followers and that's kind of dismal considering the quality of images that he takes and he and I have talked about this before now I'm gonna flip over here to my other friend the guy who used to work here who got his image picked up by Apple and Drew and drew 39,000 almost 40,000 followers and he's not a traditionally classically trained photographer but look at the kind of content he's pumping out on a regular basis so let's talk a little bit about this do you say like in today's marketplace clients are already looking for you right now right so we got to make it a little easier for them to find you you have to share you have to be consistent you have to give I think you have to produce a lot more content so do you have anything that you want to say about photographers and what they need to do yeah um could you go to another yes which one Instagram is Jeff stock well ok give me a second up away he to me he's one of the best he knows what he's doing and he's he coordinates it it's all like on purpose and it all matches up it's very professional and and at the same time as I was saying human the human element today you get a sense of him you got a feeling of him like if you look at his picture probably on the top of that it probably looks like yeah it kind of looks like his images oh it's him uh-huh that's that's a I'm gonna say moneymaker that's a successful photographer Monte maker it's genuine it's him so put yourself not just what you love to shoot or what's making money what's the trend right now but make sure it's you shoot what you love shoot be in your book be a part of your portfolio it's a reflection of you and your personality your beliefs and values yeah it's not just the slick really hyper produce images that you create for your clients right okay all right anything else you want to say about that um I guess I you could go to mind Stern route okay and then ask Stern rap I feel like we ought to all do really creative right now there's the world is changing we don't really know what's up where is this going I feel like ever all photographers are very it used to be the structure the system of very just experienced that's how you get there you pay good money though you learn you go to school you buy hit serious equipment but now who's getting jobs inexperienced photographers who equipment is not expensive so people can do this because of the Instagram look we're a different world and we even Chris you and I we have to get more creative and that's why we're doing this interview right right we're marketing but we're in a creative style that feels right to us we're just putting ourselves out there that's right and I could second that I mean I personally had an experience just this past weekend and I had a great opportunity to shoot for Nike at the all-star weekend and I feel like my Instagram presence and my online presence wasn't it hasn't been that great I think I could do a lot better but to your point you know I had some really good friends who put me in that position and connected me with the right people so the the you know personable aspect is such a huge part of that and that led me to meeting one of the creative groups of shout out to victory guys when I say thank you to them for putting me into connection with that that Nike shoots oh god yeah okay yeah all right mark thanks for that story jeez all right hey let's jump to YouTube and Facebook and see if they have any questions Molly are you yeah I mean I've been pulling I'm sorry can I be inter Yeah right mark that was good because again I keep saying LinkedIn I don't work for LinkedIn that's you just make connections it's all about connections follow them up go for them send them a present sentiment gift do what you got to do here I'm a lunch it's so frigging simple so human nowadays I went to a dinner last night in and it was heartwarming and we both felt it were being real but were being a little more human than just social media yeah okay no let's go to the YouTube Facebook questions go ahead some people have been asking are you repping people from outside the United States and do reps do that like rep internationally yes and I actually I'm look I'm talking to some people so yes he's happening okay that was one I have another question here yeah is I noticed that everybody you represent is a man mmm any females I used to rep the wonderful Christina Peters for food so and we have a great relationship food just kind of took a change in the industry but I have her and I rep Taryn Montrose for pets and she's fantastic so I have raped women there are women out there I think there are more men or maybe I'm wrong on that and it just happens for me mm-hmm okay back to Molly um someone asked if I upload my content to the Internet how can I legally protect my work from being used somewhere else mmm people do put that there copyright there a little symbol on it but I think that does not look professional mm-hmm I think there are ways I'm not techie so maybe someone else here knows that there's there's a way that you do digital watermarking and you can do that inside Photoshop and I remember an Adobe person talking about this that you can print the image out scan it in and print it out like 15 times and the digital watermark is still embedded within an image somehow this is the miracle of technology but I do want to talk about this a little bit and this is one of my my cripes here Andrea so this is the first bone of contention I might just throw out there is that photographers and make it really difficult to share their images I understand they're very protective of it a lot of photographers use some kind of flash or embedding technology so if I'm bookmarking somebody to say like you know I really would like to hire disperse in the future they seem to go out of their way to make it very hard to even to grab an image even though I can simply do a screen capture so that to me is a point of frustration and annoying so it's like I'm just gonna Vaughn can you talk about that a little bit it's it's always been a big battle in our industry and some people ask us can I use your image for speck if they need high-res images that's a pain in the butt so often we won't do that although we want to be up for the jobs it's it's not an easy question because you don't want people stealing it so you don't want to put high-res images out there I don't know if that answers the question okay let me just look at it like this if your court your work is good enough for somebody to steal I think that's a good sign first of all and because there's a lot of crappy images out that we know that all you have to do is go on Google but if somebody steals your image and you see it that's a great way for you to sue them and make money no like what are we afraid of here who's gonna take the time and the money to sue Google you know or whatever but cut to my camera I I would if you steal our work and you use it for profit I will stop you really fast and I've done this before so this is where I think it's like here's the conundrum I'm trying to get my head wrapped around this it's like when I'm pacing around the room like like Brad Pitt and twelve Monkeys you know in a straitjacket like you know how I'm gonna resolve this in my mind I want people to find me I want amazing reps like Andrea to find me I want clients to find me yeah I'm not gonna share any of my images that doesn't click with me like I'm saying don't share your images put them out there but not in a high-res so they can't really use it for something big but I do have a story but I cannot say who the company was okay a photographer came to me and said hey this huge company is using my images with no usage rights that expired I then said I got it let me handle it and I didn't know who to go the process of finding them is really difficult like who do you talk to you on a big company I found the person mostly through trial and error asking around I did the negotiation not a lawyer I wonder I think I probably got more for that photographer than a lawyer would have I think so you don't have to sue them you don't have to afford right Bobby can't afford a lawyer right that's why I think a rep could help right so I imagine you rolling up your sleeves look I'm gonna go bust some heads right knocking on the door it's like believe you're using my clients copyrighted image so we can work this out the nice way yeah we can negotiate something and we can make this go away yeah or we can get really contentious and I can hire an attorney and sue you to burn your company down let's not go there I'm not saying that that's the first course of action but if somebody uses our image without our consent I'm gonna come after you and just uh curiosity how much money did you get I don't know that I'm allowed to say you can't say we don't even know anything about this person I know I just feel weird it's I like to keep everything very private for people oh come it was a arranged okay range it was between 30 to 50 grand that is significant yeah hold on hold on let me just do this yeah there we go yeah and so now I'm sure there's a couple of people their heads and their minds are blown right now thinking how is it possible you went in and got 30 to 50 thousand dollars for an image due to a copyright infringement that's why I'm thinking to myself go ahead and steal our images I'm gonna call you Andrea and she's gonna go after you I like that please call me right yeah but I got an answer how I did it really nicely and that's my method I'm just really nice kill them with kindness yeah I can see that in you I like to kill them with brass knuckles but that's a difference that's human time no I'm just kidding no I want it to be amicable and I want it to not be contentious only if necessary we go there if you don't take me seriously you blow me off you've totally disrespectful I try once I tried twice and you're just gonna ignore it it's time to get legal on you okay I think they're just as one scared and wanting they didn't know what they didn't do on a purpose I don't think it's still purpose okay that's my opinion all right that's good you're very calm I am very kind you give everybody the benefit yeah okay that's cool you know what we were talking before the show and I had asked Andrea a bunch of questions about where she where she's from she's from New York she came to LA she's been here for a long time and how is it that she became a rep in the first place so this is like my best version of Quentin Tarantino's like nonlinear editing we'll go back to the beginning now right now that I have everybody leaning in hopefully all right and they want to know more about who you are so how did you become a rep and and can you tell us a little bit but how you got into this yes love to I went to Brookes for a year and I realized after a lifelong love of photography I knew in high school or even before I loved it so I went to Brookes and then I thought oh my god what now I don't love it I couldn't like be creative and at the same time talk to talent I couldn't instruct talent what to do I wasn't a director who could talk and be creative at the same time so I thought oh my god I'm freaked out because that's all I love to do I love photography and I don't want to be a photographer what does that mean I don't want to be an assistant what does that mean so I moved to Seattle and I started talking to the head of the ASP mm-hmm thank you Doug Landreth and he gave me advice I I wrote out this list of who I am what do I love Who am I I love money I love talking about money I love negotiating I love sales and I love managing people I love connecting I love making best friends in like one minute it's I love it and I have that thing about me it's my passion and so he wrote this read this listen he said oh you're a rep I was like oh what's a rep and he didn't mean the best career counselor ever oh my god but I I think by putting together his list of who I am what I love it's kind of easy you give it to someone in the business and they direct you so I listened to him I became his rep and then from there I learned I really want to start my own company rapping was it just my honestly please don't tell anyone out there that I would rep for free because I loved it you secrets don't tell anyone I'm gonna work on that slide right now okay so you must have been like selling must be in your DNA because here you are like I don't know what to do with my life next thing you know you got yourself a job in a career yeah how does that even happen buddy and believe me we had pagers at the time we didn't even have internet we had telephones yep and I would call people yeah so it was really different but it took the same skills that same bonding with people talking business talking money getting marketing I never took a marketing class I wish any advice I could have given myself back then take business I have a degree in sociology mm-hmm not very helpful I guess I mean it's groups of people but business learn business everything's a business okay Molly yes question um I watched you looking for a plan on how do you connect with clients what I've said LinkedIn price 17 times yes okay then I mean other than um they call me they know sometimes they see me um they Google search getting google analytics good it's a that's a great idea um how do I connect with clients last night I had dinner with one you can send them things you just kind of get creative that's the whole thing creative imagination has to be huge bumped up right now like whoo that's we have to figure this stuff out there's no answer to this question whatever you're good at do that if you're not good at meeting with people don't meet with people and that's against what a lot of people are gonna tell you but use your creative imagination send them a postcard I once received a letter a card a handwritten note yeah whatever works I have a question do you think photographers will need less reps in the future yes I hate to say oh please don't tell anyone I don't think we're needed the way we were but we're still needed especially in certain industries for certain people if a photographer loves talking money and they do a lot of their own marketing and they know how to do it and they're already doing really well of those people these days don't need reps um if I could get them more money I would hope that they would use me but someday and with social media and like influencers we don't know today unless they don't want to negotiate for themselves and unless they need help like a team partnership I like to team up with my photographers what are you doing what are you testing we're we're we what are you saying on the social media what do you where do you want to go with this who do you want to work with you know I like that some people don't some photographers don't need that okay I got one so you represent a lot of photographers how big is video for your for your business and your videographers very good question I don't rip video refers but now all my photographers do video and that's the way it is what's what I was saying about more and more more client needs for all their platforms more and more more video is a huge part of that so every photographer basically kind of right now needs to do video well yeah well it's it's a close cousin to photography because most DSLRs now shoot video and you already know all the lighting some of it changes if you shoot with strobe it's a little bit different but it's it's a pretty natural transition I've heard of photographers shooting on the red camera shooting video because then they can go back in and grab a frame especially when it's more of a lifestyle storytelling editorial thing so there's there's natural affinities there and so are some of your photographers embracing this or are they resisting this idea I think everyone is gonna resist it mm-hmm and then on most jobs when it comes up you either do it or you don't get the job it's a very young thinking attitude that has to be today this creative imagination this young thinking doesn't matter how old you are just think young and think yes opportunities open the door video great I'll do it shooting more images faster learn how to do it learn remove the lighting that we used have remove how technically perfect each one image was now look at Instagram that's the look you got to stay fresh but also you don't want to just follow trends will video always be a trend I think so I think so I agree I don't know if it's so much like even if it can I would even consider it a trend it just we are consuming more and more content we have this insatiable appetite for media and so you just want to be able to give people as many options to consume the media as possible so you have the beautiful glossy images that somebody might retouch for a week and a half and you also have kind of more ephemeral stuff like behind the scenes videos documentation we talked a lot about this awesome client's book show your work is to document your process become a good documentary of your own work to grow your audience okay what else we got otherwise I'm gonna get into some controversial stuff because it's about to happen someone say czar says so when a client confronts you saying they have X amount of dollars and they find out that you charge someone else a less amount of money and you what do you say to that wait say there yeah so like how do you justify when one client comes in and they know what you charge somebody else and you're charging them a different price well how do they know word on the street let's just pretend like they know no hopefully no one knows what you're charging that's top secret okay so help me what do I answer this since like very linear in that way they don't know they don't know let's just say they do know because this is the okay lean it let me give you some time to kind of process it yes so I know how to we do this we just stretches out okay okay so here's the here's the thing a lot of people in the creative community are fearful of this that they charged a client X dollars for a logo or a photo or a video and then they get referrals so naturally that information is out in the real world and another client comes and now they've grown they've changed and they want to charge more but they're afraid that they can't ask for more now because somebody's going to find out and they're gonna caught in a web of lies and deceit I don't agree with this at all but I just want to hear your take on this well I would never lie if they do know then you own it usage is one part what are they using it for if it's a bigger usage that's a good reason it was a lot of shots so I had to charge a little more for that or you're asking for a little more so I'm gonna charge you a little more you're asking for quicker deadline rush there are so many things that go into the price that you got to be able to think of something the props were more expensive think about they find some part of it that right my my response was like no two clients are the same no two situations right it'll take more time right so you're not the same as your competitor mm-hmm so that's why it's not the same price and he'll I'm better today than I was two days ago so value value I have another quick question okay let's do it what's the difference between a rep and a manager ooh I don't know any photographers that have managers but I know in acting like they'll have a manager and an agent right to me my job and they charge one charge 15% one charges 10% I charge 25 on both I feel like a manager I do and why did you are yeah they managed them their career and I know this just from talking to Toby and that you'll say like hey you know we need to do more liquids I can get us more work and and there's there's an area here for for an opportunity so next thing you know they'll be shooting a lot of tests with liquids and you're getting them liquid jobs right here right this is not just you going out to sell what he has you're also seeing the need in the marketplace and yeah a little prodding a probing and you're like you know we got to do this we have to do this and that's another good part about a rep hopefully they have we have a you know sense of what's going on because of other things we're hearing other photographers are bidding on stuff we know what's happening out there we take people to lunch we hear we ask them our clients what's happening what are you doing so one more part a good part of a rap mm-hmm okay now what I want to do is get into this slightly more touchy subject I want to talk to you about challenges facing photographers today we're seeing changes that are happening faster and faster in the consumption of media and the downward pressure on artists and what we create so I'm sure photographers are not insulated against this so I want to just talk a little bit about now we're looking forward what is happening what are the challenges that you're seeing for photographers and what do we need to do well people want so much more in one day and there's no time given for the production part of it to happen everything is so increased massively of what's what they need and how quickly so that's a big challenge and sometimes production wise it's not that possible but somehow we if the client demands it we have to make it possible hire the right people get the right producer if if it's that kind of budget that you can get a producer if not learn yourself how do how to shoot video yourself so you don't have to hire someone else use the kind of cameras you can again get creative I say that with a question mark and when you say they need more is it so they need more outside of photography so you mentioned video what else is that more is it in all of the platforms I imagine there's more work requested for things like Instagram stories and Facebook and all the other social platforms is that what constitutes this increasing demand shoot it's everything um if there's client if there's talent on the job if is it a car is a environment there's something we used to call guerilla style where we would just go shoot and do you get a permit maybe you don't you have to move quickly do you have a second shooter going on so you're shooting video and stills at the same time it's a lot of depends on the job but it's bringing in a lot more into one situation um have you ever had to convince one of your photographers to charge more yes and how did you go about doing that good question that is a good question I'd say at the beginning of our careers I'd have to be more of a career's together our relationship I'd have to be more explaining to them and getting their approval this okay and they might say to me it's a little too high once we start to trust each other I like to do that by my self and I don't really involve them and I I know when they would think it's too high but the best part of my job and my situation is to come back when we get the job and say look look what you made yeah and shock them okay so on the flip side of that do you get a situation where you're bidding pretty aggressively for a thing and then you don't get it and then the photographer says well you know we should have done it for less yes and so how do you do with that if they were wanted on the job the client will come back to us and tell me and I make that that's my goal to when I'm negotiating is to make them feel they can talk to me if we're too high they're gonna let me know and I have gotten well you were so high that I didn't feel comfortable mm-hmm so it's a risk it's kind of a gamble and you got to feel it out as you go okay so here's here's what I'd like dr. Stern's advice on here if I may a lot of creative people feel like if they ask for what they're worth they run the risk of alienating the clients so they start to do this thing where they negotiate against themselves and that's what I'm hearing so do you have any advice for people out there that are listening to this now it's like I don't have a rap I'm not on the global stage I'm not there yet and yet they're struggling with this very concept that they're going to underprice their work and this contributes to the demise and erosion of the creative community altogether and we'll talk about that in a second but do you have any advice for these people I'm often hear heard from art producers who I negotiate with and agencies and they say a low bid a lowball bid that's the worst you look like you don't know what you're doing really important not to be too low if anything to be too high is better in that that the way I was saying before I asked that this morning I asked the question you give them a range and you ask the numbers that's maybe one of my biggest secrets please don't tell anyone okay no is to ask in a question format this is that this amount is it around this amount am I too high at this amount and I always let them know look I just don't want to be too high so is 20 grand way past your limit cuz I don't lose this job for this photographer and that's how I talk and it seems to work you can you get more information if you ask a question and put a number let them say yes and know if you want them to give you an amount you're not gonna get it right so in a situation like this are you doing this via email or on the phone or in person how are you both okay one phone ok email in phone so how you would literally write am I too high yes thinking this yeah I'd rather talk on the phone I guess much more my method of sales is to listen mm-hmm it's a really it seems to work for me I put out a little question they want to speak people want to connect they want to help you you just gotta listen let that give them the space okay I want to set you up for something and so first I'm gonna give you a little time to think about it I would love to do role playing with you where you're you and I get to be a buyer and I'm gonna be a little tough okay I'm aging art director okay you know because rarely do we get somebody else on the show that does this for a living usually I'm the person trying to sell so this is gonna be real fun but before we do that before we do this and I think maybe mark you can be the buyer you want to be the buyer you want me to be the buyer mark let's have you do it okay so what I want to do to just point out really quickly for our audience cuz we're trying to educate and kind of elevate everybody here I love the way that Andrea phrased it am i too high by thinking this amount because you're asking a no question and not a yes question this is a technique that master negotiator Chris vostok see bodies as people are very wary of asking yes questions because they know how this works in society oh are you for saving the planet do you want to see our more animals and then the third is like what you donate to our cause so people are very reluctant to say yes but he's just like one way to flip the brain and how people think about this is to ask no question so you're coming and saying am I too high at this price so they're gonna say no you're not too high and you can get buy-in much quicker so I love that I just wanted to point that out you guys good one all right here we go I'm an art director I'm at agency and we're going to talk about something how how how nice or mean or how aggressive do you want me to be and then we'll play it off that'd be your natural self let me get the knives out now we're gonna go alright so I'm an art director I'm gonna just we're gonna talk about Toby okay okay so we'll pretend like I'm looking at Toby's work okay okay so Andrea looked at Toby's work I think he's good for this campaign for Porsche what's it gonna cost for what was gonna cost well hi Chris is that your name yes it is pleasure to meet you Toby so excited this is his favorite car you won't believe this no way he has one really no I I'm really I'm really nice I keep going back to this yeah uh Toby would love to shoot this with you so however I would love to know just so you know where we start here he'd love to shoot this for you so and I know a rep can be a little intimidating and we come in a little high so please know that that's not my goal here so um how many shots is this again I think we need like five five shots and they're in the studio I don't know I need some guidance on this I'm not sure I see a lot of his work is in the studio but I need some guidance okay so it's a one-day shoot with five shots of a part is that realistic no but for this drill well guys okay so it's a one-day and what's the usage again we're gonna run it in for a print of three different media buys four different magazines in the United States like GQ wired and Fast Company is it for what six months a year three months I think we're running for three months three months okay um do you know how big the images are gonna be in these magazines I think it's gonna be one image it's gonna be like full bleed okay yeah okay so five shots in one image yeah so we're gonna need it's a campaign so we need five different shots and one image per for pride oh I see okay well since it's the one day and I do you know your budget you know IIIi I'm kind of looking for you and I know every photographer is different they price things differently yeah help me out here I mean normally and pleased again I don't want to freak you out here but normally if something like this could be a hundred grand whoa I know that's a lot oh my god if we came in like 50 grand is that does that sound like you and your client would approve that hmm let me think about that I think 50 sounds a lot more palatable okay I'm gonna need to circle back with but are we bidding against other photographers I'd like not to great we'd like that too uh well I know Toby would love to do this so I will get you a bid for should we say forty five grand I think that sounds really good okay yeah and then again if you hand listen to your client it's too high you just let me know okay well I appreciate the shoot this was flexible you are and it it's cool that Toby owns a portion yeah I'd love to talk to him about Carl I think you should talk to him – he's a great person to discuss this with you'll have some good ideas really yeah okay looking forward to it thank you to meet you Chris likewise and well done guys all right people on the Internet you got your money's worth today okay this is this is excellent now I hate to just take it on such a wonderful high and just drag you into the pits but I'm going to I'm gonna talk about this a little bit cuz you shared something with me Zacharias he produced this video and he talked about unsplash and and he he had the opportunity to and unsplash as a stock not a stock site I don't it's a photo sharing site where photographers upload their images without getting credit and anybody can use it for anything ever whatever no limitations I believe that's unsplash kind of summed up and it's founded this is a cariah's here you guys might see him he has a YouTube channel I highly recommend you guys look him up and watch his videos is very educational he's got a strong point of view and and this is I believe his name is Michael Coe and he's one of the cofounders of unsplash and crew if I'm not mistaken so the controversy goes like this and Andrew you sent this to me so I was like I felt like I had to watch it only later to find out you didn't watch it yourself so Zack is a photographer he's a professional photographer and I can tell in the video he's he's a he's angry and and he's doing his best and he's done a lot of homework and he's having this conversation with Michael Michael's very simple about this whole thing he says aren't aren't you exploiting photographers aren't you worried that somebody that doesn't know what they're doing is going to have an image on unsplash that doesn't have model releases or things clear that things that normal professional photographers take care of and somebody uses their images and gets sued this whole thing's gonna come tumbling down and he said it doesn't seem fair that we're going to exploit the need and the desire for people to get exposure by doing this to them and so I think that's the beginning of the conversation I just wanted to get your thoughts on it and and I just wanna let the internet know Andrew and I had talked about this before III have differing points of view so it might get a little contentious but I want to kind of see where we net out and have this kind of rigorous debate about this so Andrew the platform is yours I think this is a really important conversation especially for newer photographers getting into this or the younger mindset and honestly it's my directors of operation the wonderful Olivia who found this and sent it to both of us and she has a good point and that's in her world she's a young photographer is to know how do I get my stuff out there and I know we were talking about that this is one idea I find it very unsafe because of my history experience business negotiation is a part of the usage you pay for usage so if someone can use your image for free it's extremely dangerous to the ethics of photographer photography photographers all over the world it can really hurt everyone if this takes off that's a big part of where I come from okay so I understand Dan and Zach and the video says I don't want to sound like I'm like the the cranky old male like kids get off the lawn kind of thing like maybe the time has come in though and the world has changed and there's a new world order so he's trying to reconcile this himself and he says as many times he's a very articulate person he's done a ton of research but I was thinking about this it's like can we see as a photographer if you're an adult and you can make a decision about this kind of stuff that it is hard to get attention these days it's very difficult and is it okay to make something as a loss leader a loss leader meaning you give something away for free in hopes that you get something else and the reason why I think about this is on YouTube we are giving away our knowledge for free for the exchange in the exchanges value I give people who are watching this show value and then they give back to us and it's kind of very open and egalitarian it all kind of works right so I'm spending a ton of money you can see there are four people in this room excluding yourself a ton of equipment and things that were making for free for people to use and learn they watch it in classrooms they watch it on their own this is how they go out and make money what I get in return from them is I grow a community so that when I ask them to buy a product or to support us by donating say five dollars a month there's over 500 people who do this and this is the new world order that I'm seeing so I'd like to get your thoughts on that there's a lot to say on this um I think the main part is will it lead to other jobs or are you giving away something that satisfies what they need so they don't come back to you to pay for something else and I think that's why we all do this that's why I'm sitting here doing this with you even though I really like you Chris there is a marketing you know I'm getting university and I'm just getting myself out there which is that human marketing thing that we all need to do right now like I'm doing ask Stern rep it's on Instagram it's to build my brand and that and it's something I enjoy we're doing this because we enjoy it so that's the question get your work out there but will it lead to jobs will lead to money and if for some reason a photographer feels like that's how they got to do it okay but then there's that bigger picture of how do photographers make money mm-hmm through the usage of their images so people who are doing this are going against the the thing that makes them money that has been built to make it a professional career okay you feel okay about that okay I don't I have some thoughts on this and I want to share this with you because my wife and I we had these kinds of discussions all the time in that we want to see a pretty linear relationship between effort and return like we want to see cause and effect I do this and then I net this kind of client and I have a different worldview on this I think you do a lot of good in the world it's it's like karmic equity the more good you do the more value you create in the world the more it comes back to you and I'll even point out to this part you might have a photographer that is on your roster who's like Andrew why do I have to invest in reinventing myself every single month that's that's beyond like reasonable why do I need to spend money doing test shoots all the time or if a client wants me to do a little extra before they hire us why should I have to do any of that and you can't with this level of certainty say to them well you're gonna get more work or I'm gonna be able to sell you for this it's there's no guarantees but we know that we don't do anything we know what we're gonna get right so right it seems like the argument is clear there and I'm all for that it's like yeah Toby do another test shoot what are you doing why are you working on your motorcycle today right because it's not gonna get us work or not maybe maybe not so in the same way I don't necessarily think that it has to be so transactional that it's a one-for-one kind of thing and this channel would not exist this channel would not have over two hundred forty thousand subscribers if I went into thinking how would I convert this into money and to tell you the truth the reason why we have a big audience today is because we went away from that model almost everywhere else you go on the internet someone you create something of value and then they stop the video right where you need to learn the thing you need to learn and then now you have to go and buy and enroll in the course and this is how we did the channel in the beginning Jose and I we would make videos where we knew we're trying to sell something in the in the video and making of it so not that many people tuned in not people shared not many people talked about it because they're being sold to and that's when I said let's stop doing that I want no more advertising we're not gonna self promote I just want to give value away and it is now this very fast-growing company so this is what I kind of think of it in something that lecture on quite a bit the age of the the classical artists where your graphic designer or photographer or any or an illustrator that age is almost gone if not already gone in the new age you have to be able to build community around the things that you make and we see a lot of very successful people yourself included giveaway value like astern reps has a thousand followers you're trying to help teach and educate a community of photographers or creative people what it is that you do and you're giving away your knowledge for free you're on this show sharing some of your quote-unquote trade secrets with the world in that I think what happens is I'm some young photographer out there or an older photographer I see what you do and I'm like wow I never knew the power of a rep and she seems really cool and she has a nice approach that I think I'm going to get along with so they're gonna reach out to you but there's no guarantee that that's going to happen and this is why I have zero problems with unsplash because I myself and Zack himself is producing videos at a very high cost to himself to build community now you're gonna say this and I know the arguments gonna come back at me well nobody can take our videos down and repurpose and reuse it and we can come after them and we might come after you that's totally true whereas unsplash there you can use it and then that's the whole premise of the site you can grab it user credit not credit it sign-in for an email account or not there's no way to track anything but if I'm a person that's living in say Egypt somewhere and I'll have access to all these things and I can't make videos I can't edit I can't live stream this is the platform I can't grow my audience fast on Instagram this is what I do so why should we judge them on this I think this is just the new world order and I think it's it's here whether we like it or not we're using that or was he saying that well I'm saying it okay no no he's saying I hate this he wants like punch a hole in the wall I meant was the unsplash guy saying that oh no the unsplash guy was actually he's very cordial very businesslike he just did his best and and I was like dude you could make a stronger argument I'm I'm like now fired up saying let's have a debate about this well are you comparing like unsplash to ask Stern rap no not at all I'm just saying like all of us do different things to build community to give value to our communities in the ways that we can if I'm not an experienced rep I can't do a Stern route but I have an image and I could say I can go out and shoot some still life the trees are dirt or whatever some textures and I can say this is gonna be my loss leader this is how I'm gonna build some interest in what I do I think there's a couple parts to this one is does it fuel and motivate you that's why I do ask Stern rep mm-hmm I love it mm-hmm I don't know why I can't explain it I don't know where the idea came from I don't know if any if it's really bringing any money but it fuels me as a person and as a rep it's my business to get invigorated and inspired so that's where it works for me I will like Chris as you're talking I mean I agree with you and that's marketing we're doing this because and you get these followers because it's part of your marketing it's awareness is branding but Chris if someone came to you and said I want you to direct this for free for this company and we're gonna use it to make money but we're not gonna pay you you'd say yeah no I would not say yes it's the same thing he's not even close to the same thing because I don't consider this as the stock-in-trade of what I do or maybe it is like I have courses right we sell courses and so people might feel like yeah I've gotten a lot of value from this this dude and I just want to repay that somehow and that's cool conversely I wouldn't want them to download a course and share for free because that's illegal first of all but there's a very different distinction like I willingly produce these cut these pieces of content for people to share in to grow community if somebody comes on a site and says here's my image use of whatever you want hopefully I'm on your radar now and and there are some really gorgeous images on unsplash I have to admit better than a lot of stock photography sites even so now I'm starting to like figure out oh this this prayer I need to look this person up this is really good right right but maybe I'm a little more ethical than someone else I don't know maybe I'm more fair-minded but that's what you sign up for I don't sign up for doing work for free I don't sign up for producing products for people to steal there's a big big difference it's about the willingness of the person participating in it but we have were business owners we have to control that a little bit I mean these photographers are putting their images out there to be used for free again if it leads to more work okay I kind of understand that I do understand that depends on your business model what's your work that's wholly true so what I'm saying is for the person who doesn't have a lot of different avenues for exposure let's say they have 200 followers on Instagram that can't get it they can't get in touch with you like I said there's a handful of you and thousands if not hundreds of thousands of aspiring photographers there is no funnel so I'm just the I just want to say I don't want to judge you you go in and you do this and here's my biggest bone of contention here with Zach and what he's saying is that if you are competing like I'm a graphic designer or if I'm competing with designers on 99designs or Fiverr I'm in the wrong business to begin with right so I never look at any of those people as competition to me if we start to feel threatened I think we need to start looking in the mirror and saying we're in the wrong business there isn't enough difference between what I do and what they do and that's a big that's a bigger problem than anything else and I think what's happened I think in terms of the erosion of the photography market to some degree is the democratization of the tools technology has gotten a lot better everybody can get out with with not everybody can go out and buy like a thousand-dollar DSLR and start to be able to shoot ten thousand images that might take a photographer years to learn in craft and hone we know that that has shifted a lot so it starts to make it harder to distinguish between a photographer like Zach or Jeff or Toby I don't agree with this then somebody else that has been doing it for a relatively short period of time these guys shoot at the highest level so the the analogy might not be apropos but it's it's becoming harder for people to tell the difference so much so that you're saying your clients are coming to you and asking for that Instagram kind of amateur slice-of-life reality look so the aesthetic is swinging towards more amateur style right because it feels more authentic and real yeah they call it editorial editorial but there's so much to say on this button if a photographer is at that stage where they feel the only way to get their stuff out there the only 200 Instagram followers is to go on unsplash might say go to school be an assistant read these blogs I was talking about before talk to people go a test get out there get a teacher take a I mean there's so many ways to note you're not really ready to get jobs if you're not getting jobs do something about it deal with the issue instead of selling out what makes a photographer's business work across the board and what about like the music industry this is named issue right we got a somehow pay for music we used to do it I don't see you late mm-hmm well it's all streaming for the most part now it is but so here's here's where it goes again where I I still buy music and my wife looks at me what are you doing like what is this right because I feel like I need to support the artists that make the music that I love but I also listen to something like Spotify and I listen to with ads and because that's also a way that they get paid so there's lots of different ways to consume content and I'm not telling anybody to do anything unethical or illegal but a site like unsplash makes it ethical and legal into a degree and right because this is what we all signed up for if you do post an image on unsplash as is with Creative Commons and other kind of sites right I just think there's a bigger picture to mind well it's just that that if we don't get paid for usage mm-hmm and people can steal images or I'm sorry not steal if people can use images for free right we're ruining the business that we've created and you're ruining the ethical standards that make it possible to make us a career mm-hmm now do you think the buyer who's going to spend five ten twenty thousand dollars on image is going to forego hiring chef Stockwell for a unsplash image is that realistic yes it could be yeah sure what's that website where they put their images on time a lot of photographers who are obsessional know is it for stock starts with an F mm-hmm all right I'll get back to you on that okay but there are ways that photographers can be found that are really cheap and they will get hired and people do look on these sites Flickr Flickr yes so it's a bigger issue I think it's much bigger than just this unsplash website and the photographers that are doing it it's like a bigger question and who we want to be in this world if you want to sell out what's created the system that makes people do this for a living mm-hmm and I think it will hurt us all of us so I just feel like and I know I'm the crazy maverick here the rebel without a cause is that the tides come and it's just it's really you can't swim against the tide and the tightest here so a lot of people will sit around and kind of debate and reminisce about the good old days and say oh these young guys are ruining the industry I just like hey this is the sign of times man reinvent yourself like you said but not reinvent yourself and like small increments like go big go wholesale change adapt do what you need to do to be relevant to live a creative life our channel really is about that champion creatives and help them find a better way but we can't if we just hold on to the past that's my opinion I do want to share a little love with you a little love here I think there's some previous boyfriend's or something tuning in yes people are calling you like a lover smile the Queen debater and and somebody's saying I'm so happy to see you again III think that's for you who's that I just went it's people are saying beautiful hand clapping I think it's all for you so they love how honest you are I'm honest yeah I thought of one thing there mm-hmm I was talking before about the creative call there's the creative call and the treatment we're giving those away for free I can quickly explain what they are okay we made of call when you're bidding on a job before we bid the job we get on the call I listen in the photographer's talking to the creative and there when the enthusiasm trying to debate not to be discover what the job is about and getting all their questions answered giving their ideas their thoughts and showing who they're gonna bring to the table of the of the job if they get the job kind of selling themself but in a very genuine way we're doing that for free it's time we're all like taking an hour of the day scheduling this so there are things that we give away for free part of the job then we they have to write a treatment which is really hard a lot of photographers should hire a writer absolutely and a designer and put together with images and samples I'm gonna locations gonna be here the Wardrobe is gonna look like this here's some samples of talent my ideas for this and it should be a little PDF one or two pages or more so oh no and these should look really professional so you're selling yourself and you're giving away for free but it's in terms of to get a job that's my point okay I do want to share a few more comments here David Brier the branding master said 100% agree with you spot-on Chris and then extorted which I think is your ex-boyfriend somewhere it says in the very next comment disagree 100% with you Chris so there's a lot of polarization going on here and then he extorted said I never give away my secrets or help anyone else I look out at number one that could be why the relationship did not work out buddy I'm just guessing here okay so many thing live long and prosper I can do that you know what I think it's time to wrap up the show Andrea I just wanted to ask you if there you have any parting thoughts or burning things that you want to talk about or announcements you want to make before I do the show recap announcements yeah um I have a question for you Chris oh I had a waiter last night is this okay yeah of course it's live don't worry about his news Anthony okay he was so nice and he was talking about he wants to be creative and he's in a school right now in Long Beach and the guidance counselor asked him what what part of the business do you want to be in and he was like I don't know when do these people need to decide in your opinion which area of the industry they have to choose to begin oh that's a really good question okay so there's a couple things you're asking me they're like when I hear when it sounds like an age thing or maybe as it relates to when you go to school I think the best thing that you can do is to kind of do the buffet thing which is you go to a school that that you like that's reputable and you go to a grad show and you kind of sample like what it looks like maybe you go in thinking you're a photographer but then you find out you want to be a cinematographer or a set designer or some other kind of visual art and and be okay with allowing you to change it to change your mind realize there's a cost component to that and that you might have to start over and spend more money but if that's not an issue for you that's totally okay but in terms of an age I put no limit on when you need to discover your heart and I think there's a story about Gauguin who was like a married postal worker he would hang out in the French bistros and cafes and watch other artists and admire them and so eventually he decided he's gonna leave his family his wife and moved to the Caribbean and become this painter so I think this is like what you would consider like his midlife crisis but then he became this wonderful painter so I don't put an age on this and I think to do so would be aegis I think my answer would be when you're ready you'll know mmm go find go research everything and then you'll just you'll see it oh that's me mm-hmm that's like how I became a rep but I'd like to give a little advice I wrote it down okay emotions not to run the business I was told that and it one of the best things I've ever heard mm-hmm your emotional world does not control your business feel the fear and do it anyway great book I'm gonna be scared to do so I'm scared to do this interview but I'm sitting here doing it were you really scared I'm not scared but I'd rather not but now that I'm here I'm like yeah that was fun show your confidence open doors don't don't show that you're insecure or shy show your confidence this is professional be a professional um jump outside the box there is no longer a box in our world with social media go find what create your own ways and as far as your portfolio consistency a whole portfolio one image does not make a portfolio big time consistency the best go look up researched photographers that interest you and then look look at their whole body of work as one that's a great photographer excellent it's great all right so you've kind of stolen a little wind out of my sails here oh but that's all good so what went you know is we're gonna do the recap and I'm just gonna read back everything that I've learned from you today all right here we go guys and some of it is not totally accurate but here we go this famer connect with people become best friends in one minute leverage social platforms know your strengths and weaknesses and go all-in on your strengths go all-in you guys this is what Andrea did she figured out she wasn't a great photographer per se but she liked photography she'd like negotiating and money and managing people she did that she has a wonderful career think young think yes constantly reinvent herself not like in a year or five years of ten years but every single month because learning is growth feel the fear but do it you just had that open doors jump outside the box one image doesn't make a portfolio and consistency yo consistency keep doing it over and over again and nobody needs to know this but she will rep where did this part out later okay no you guys want to get in touch with Andrea because she seems like a pretty cool person he was how you get in touch with her she makes it really easy her name is Andrea stern like firm stern you know stern okay stern rep on Twitter on Instagram if you want to ask her a question or ask question a stern rep Instagram she has two accounts there and stern rap on Facebook it's really easy and then stern rep comm and there's a rumor that her Rosser may grow by a couple of people who knows we'll wait for that announcement when it happens okay Andrea I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for coming on the show I hope that you guys that are tuning in will continue the debate with me online because you guys know I'm the master debater let's have a conversation after this thank you for tuning in we'll see you guys live tomorrow I want to remind you guys you're not defined by your past the future is what you make it see you later where is the titles you